The Dutch ambassador about coming to Lithuania: for the first time I experienced that I not only know that there is a war, but also feel it
The conflict in Ukraine deeply affected Dutch society back in 2014. July 17 Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which was traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was shot down over eastern Ukraine, with almost 200 citizens of this country on board. in 2022 November 17 A Dutch court found guilty and sentenced three defendants from the Russian-backed separatist forces: Igor Girkin, Sergey Dubinsky and Leonid Karchenko.
The downing of the plane shocked the Netherlands. According to the ambassador, after the bodies of the dead were flown back to Eindhoven, life in the country came to a complete halt for a while. After this event, a part of Dutch politicians and the public do not want to engage in any talks about compromises with the current Russian government.
before coming to Lithuania, the ambassador advised Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte for many years, and later headed the country’s intelligence. We talked with the ambassador about how Russia’s aggression against Ukraine has been a life in the Netherlands, how do you feel about the Dutch soldiers stationed in Lithuania, and we can expect that Ukraine will open the doors of the Alliance already at the Vilnius NATO summit.
– We arrived in Lithuania just a few months ago, there is a war going on in Ukraine, which has a huge impact on Lithuanian society. How is February 24, the first day of Russia’s large-scale aggression against Ukraine, long for the Netherlands?
– The influence of the war on Dutch society is different from your influence, but it is as great as in Lithuania. I think that in many respects, the Lithuanians were prepared for what is happening now due to their historical experience. These are the Lithuanians – less naive than some Dutch people. On the other hand, we have our own experience (I really liked the downing of MH17 in July 2014), so we were not surprised that Russia could take such aggressive and irresponsible actions. However, the behavior of Russian soldiers in Ukraine is truly shocking.
On the other hand, there is a considerable geographical distance between the Netherlands and Lithuania, so the war in Ukraine is not so prominent in the daily life of the Dutch. I came to Lithuania for the first time at the beginning of April this year. I have a lot of experience in the field of security, so I understand very well what is happening in Ukraine, but when I came to Lithuania, I experienced for the first time that I not only know that a war is going on, but also feel it. I think this is the best way to describe the difference.
In terms of policy, what is different is that the Dutch government is now firmly committed to increasing our defense spending. It also aims to accelerate the previous commitments we made at the NATO summit in Wales, namely the target of 2%. GDP for defense, enforcement. I’m not saying it was just a commitment on paper because I’ve increased my contribution, but I have to be honest – sometimes I need to be so ashamed of how far behind we still are.
– Several hundred Dutch soldiers are constantly serving in the NATO multinational battle group in Lithuania on a rotating basis. How does the Netherlands assess the security of Lithuania and the deployment of soldiers in our country? What do the Dutch soldiers you meet say about their stay in Lithuania?
– Since 2017, when we joined the NATO forward forces battalion combat group, there has been no public discussion in the Netherlands about our presence in Lithuania. This was seen as NATO solidarity. The presence of our soldiers here was also seen as an opportunity for training Dutch soldiers to cooperate with colleagues from Germany, Lithuania and other countries of the Alliance. However, in 2022 February 24 Everything’s alright.
During the last rotation of Dutch soldiers, Russia launched a large-scale offensive in Ukraine and our soldiers felt a big change. Even when communicating with their families at home, they started getting questions about whether they were at war, whether they were in danger, etc. In the Dutch media and politics, attention to our troops stationed in Lithuania has increased – the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defense, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and members of the Parliament have visited here. The presence of Dutch soldiers in Lithuania became much more visible. The positive aspect of the discussions is that we were already here in Lithuania, and together with our allies, we were encouraged to ensure the security of your country.
During my last visit to the Dutch soldiers, I had the opportunity to communicate with them informally – to sit down, talk, and hear their questions and observations. It can truly be said that everyone, from ordinary soldiers to officers, is convinced that we need to be in Lithuania and that it is beneficial for us as well.
– You have been working in the field of security for many years, where there is more and more discussion about it, security is related to the law. For example, there is now more discussion about why it is important to have more women working in fields related to security and foreign policy, about the rights of the LGBT community and similar topics. In your experience, how do human rights relate to security?
– Since I grew up in a family surrounded by strong women, I am not afraid of them. When you want to build an economy, a company, a country or a family, you need everyone to be together, whether it’s men or women. For that to be enough, you need all the human capital. You need mixed gender teams, whether in business or in the police force. The results are better – we can clearly see that.
There are now a lot more women officers in the police. Also, in the larger cities of the Netherlands, where there are large migrant communities, there are certain cultural things to consider. Thanks to mixed teams, everyone can help to better understand what is going on, our security situation is better and stronger than before. For example, in Afghanistan, our soldiers worked in mixed teams. Women could be victimized where men were involved for religious reasons. They were able to talk to the local women and check that the rooms off-limits to men were safe and that nothing was being hidden. So, working in mixed teams can find social groups, websites and get more intelligence.
When it comes to LGBT rights, if people are fit to serve in the armed forces due to their physical and psychological condition, there is no reason to exclude them. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a man or a woman, whether the person is homosexual or not – everyone who meets the objective requirements can be part of the team, it strengthens it. I think that the people’s commitment to fight for the basic values of democracy, in a real sense, is only a little bit.
– If you look at social networks or news portals, you can see that there is more and more talk about how the economic and energy crisis can affect European support and solidarity with Ukraine. What influence do these factors have on Dutch society and policy makers?
– In the Netherlands, as in Lithuania, there are lively discussions in the social space. For this reason, there are already comments from the ranks of radical or fringe representatives regarding support for Ukraine. There are people who doubt whether to continue providing aid. More generally, the Dutch strongly support the commitments of the Dutch government and NATO to help Ukraine counter Russian aggression. In addition, support packages have been adopted not only at the European level, but also in the national parliaments of European countries, which aim to limit energy prices and provide subsidies to companies and families that need help against the background of these disasters.
If these crises continue, support for Ukraine depends on the severity of the next few winters. As we can see now, there is no shortage of natural gas – most of the gas storages in Europe are full, as agreed. In addition, measures have been taken so that we no longer compete with them when purchasing additional gas reserves. I think we have secured enough resources this winter. However, it is also important to look at a longer period, because in 2023 and 2024 winters can be more difficult to stock up on gas. As a result, we need to rapidly move towards permanent renewable energy.
In the face of the crisis, the Dutch government must clearly tell the population that we are in a kind of existential war, because it is not just Ukraine’s war with Russia. This may sound like a foregone conclusion, but this is a war that directly affects us. Although Ukraine is not a member of NATO, it is in the very center of Europe and defends democratic values, human rights, which are in danger. The outcome of the conflict, although we are not officially involved in it, will affect the whole of Europe.
– in 2014 Russian-backed separatist forces shot down a Malaysia Airlines flight from Amsterdam with nearly 200 Dutch nationals on board. What impact did this disaster have on Dutch society and how did it affect the whole Dutch attitude towards the war in Ukraine and Russia in general?
– The Netherlands was affected by this disaster. At that time, about 17.7 million people lived in the country. people, and about 200 Dutch citizens died in this disaster. Almost every person I spoke to in the country knew someone who had flown on the plane or knew something about someone who had flown. 17 million inhabitants is a small society, we know each other well.
I still remember how the bodies of the dead returned to Eindhoven airport. A long procession of hearses stretched from it to Hilversium. Country life was at a complete standstill. It was a shock. A large part of the Dutch public and a significant part of the country’s parliamentarians do not want to compromise with the Russian regime. Yes, certain extreme elements in social media and politics express a different opinion, but they are only extreme elements.
The youth of the Netherlands have grown up with the idea that we will never experience armed conflict again. We have managed to survive the terrorist attacks of the Islamic State relatively well, despite the horrific attacks in Belgium, France and Germany, where civilians have been among our victims. However, the scale of these events shows that we are much more vulnerable than we thought.
It is difficult to compare what is happening in Dutch society now and what was happening when MH17 was shot down. When the MH17 tragedy happened, almost everyone knew at least one of those who flew on that plane. It was July and people were traveling with their families on vacation, so it really touched our hearts. At the time, there was no firm and broad commitment to defense spending, even though the country was in for a shock. Society and politics are constantly affected by both events, but the changes are different in part because of the large number of Dutch victims in the MH17 tragedy.
– What goals could Lithuania and the Netherlands jointly pursue in the run-up to the NATO summit in Vilnius?
– I hope that we will be able to welcome Finland and Sweden to join us at this NATO summit. Although we are still waiting for confirmation from Hungary and Turkey, I have hopes and know that Lithuania, together with other NATO members, is striving for the success of this decision. I think that would be a positive result. In addition, the conflict in Ukraine is not yet over, so in this regard it is very important for us as NATO to establish unity and a strong commitment to support Ukraine in its fight against Russian aggression.
There are different opinions on Ukraine’s membership in NATO. There is a political debate going on and both sides have strong arguments. Some countries will support the normal path to membership through the Partnership for Peace programme, political consultations and other processes to go through. I know that the Nordic and Baltic countries and Canada are of the opinion that NATO could offer Ukraine membership during or before the summit.
It sounds very diplomatic, but at the same time we need to think about how to find the right words to maintain both unity and the NATO perspective for Ukraine. What worries me is that, as we know, Russian disinformation purveyors are constantly trying to find cracks in NATO unity. When there are cracks, propagandists are unfortunately able to widen them. NATO unity should be the focus of all of us. Even if we disagree on, for example, the timing of Ukraine’s membership, we can look for another mutually acceptable way to ensure the prospect of Ukraine’s membership.
Ultimately, no third country can decide whether another country should choose the Euro-Atlantic path or a neutral one like Switzerland. This is a country-specific decision, not ours or that of third parties.
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